[CUUSOO] Firefly Serenity playset

[Relhak]

I'd say that the target Firefly audience was high school and adult. One of the main characters is a prostitute, and the rest are mostly thieves and smugglers. The characters have redeeming qualities, but they're not clearly good people.

IJ, HP, Batman, LotR are aimed at 10 years old and up, so pushing the upper end of the Lego demographic, but they're relatively safe for kids. The rest are designed from the start to appeal to kids. The good guys and bad guys are clearly defined.

[NIGELTTF]

I'd say that the target Firefly audience was high school and adult. One of the main characters is a prostitute, and the rest are mostly thieves and smugglers. The characters have redeeming qualities, but they're not clearly good people.

IJ, HP, Batman, LotR are aimed at 10 years old and up, so pushing the upper end of the Lego demographic, but they're relatively safe for kids. The rest are designed from the start to appeal to kids. The good guys and bad guys are clearly defined.

Yes, that should have been patently clear. Before anyone brings up Han Solo as a smuggler, it has been clear from the get go that Lucas has attempted to shift him to be less morally ambiguous, right down to the who reediting of the Greedo scene.

[vynsane]

While I'm disappointed that The Winchester and Firefly got the thumbs-down, I understand the decision and it doesn't leave a bad taste in my mouth. I also understand the comparisons to current/past licensed themes and those that have been rejected at CUUSOO, but while some of the current licenses really come close to the line that's been drawn (particularly LotR and PotC) there is a marked difference between them and SotD and Firefly.

Notice, too, that Indiana Jones, Prince of Persia, PotC and (soon) Harry Potter are no longer in production while Cars had another wave this year. The Superheroes line, particularly the DC sub-theme, is based mainly on the comic books. The Avengers sets are obviously tied into the movie, but the single forthcoming Spider-man set is based on the comics - as are all the Batman sets and the single Superman set. I think going forward we'll see more comic-based as opposed to movie-based Superhero sets. Less problem with likeness rights being a key factor there, but the subject matter weighing in as well.

I think these two rejections have brought to light a major problem with the process of CUUSOO projects - licensed themes! My question is: Why does it need to be based on a TV show or movie at all? That's the easiest way to ensure the subject matter isn't too violent/adult for the target demographic - you make up the subject matter! It is also easier for TLG to produce a set or theme that's not license-based since they don't have to pay for the license before producing the sets - less up-front costs.

Reposting this part of my response from the analogous topic over at Brickset, so some of you may have already seen this, but...

Hopefully the ultimate outcome of all this will be a push toward a greater number of high-quality, non-licensed ideas, complete with more 'realistic' support for them. Licensed properties will obviously garner more main-stream 'support' as we've already seen, but I'm still trepidatious that the main-stream support could end up being fair-weather-friend only, possibly leading to over-inflated numbers that won't match up to sales once the idea comes to fruition. At the end of the day, adult-oriented LEGO themes will sell mostly to AFoLs, with some sales to voracious adult non-FoL IP fans. TLG has made it clear: Kids are the focus. And kids don't know Firefly or Shaun of the Dead. I think they'll be hard-pressed to give the nod to EVE Online or BttF because of recognizability to the core demographic.

So, AFoLs - let's work towards quality, non-licensed, kid-friendly themes. They may not rocket up the charts to 10k the way licensed properties will, but a slow and steady path to the top may be just the 'support' we're really looking for!

[ncbarrett]

...

So, AFoLs - let's work towards quality, non-licensed, kid-friendly themes. They may not rocket up the charts to 10k the way licensed properties will, but a slow and steady path to the top may be just the 'support' we're really looking for!

I second that.

Is your modular starfighter on CUUSOO?

[ahcow]

Honestly... I wouldn't have known what this was if not for the mention on The Big Bang Theory. This does not have even close to the same appeal as the other franchises Lego currently has. Some of you love Firefly, I get it, but this project makes little sense financially. How many product can you milk out of a licensing for Firefly? I am not familiar but I am pretty sure the TV series got scraped quite early on.

Bottomline for any project on Cuusoo is "will it make buttload of money?" Maybe if we take a step back and think about it, you will see that this project makes no sense. How much R&D (Yes, I know someone made it, but Lego will spend money looking and reviewing it), advertising, branding, legal fees will have to be incurred to make this happen. Unless they can generate a million is sales (highly doubtful), this will lose money for Lego. Even if it make some money, the ROC won't be good enough to go ahead. Frankly, that bucket full of Star Wars minifigures has a higher chance of being made than this and the Winchester combined. Lego isn't about making "one-offs", both of these are perfect examples of "one-offs" with no sustainable product line coming. Of course Lego cannot come out and say it wont make us any money, so they hide behind "it's not for kids" thing.

Plus, do Europeans know what Firefly is? I sure don't know without googling it, so like that will fly.

[vynsane]

Is your modular starfighter on CUUSOO?

Heh, no, it's not - and my boilerplate response when people ask is that I'm more into the 'open source' concept, which is why I share my LDD files. I also don't know how much the concept can translate into sets - they'd end up being more like parts packs than actual sets.

Anyway, in light of the 'anti-adult' angle to the past two rejections, I think starfighters might not make the cut anyway. There's also the rumor that Firefly didn't make the cut partially because of an undisclosed (and completely conjectural) non-competition clause in the Star Wars license agreement, meaning they can't have a competing sci-fi theme. Obviously they had Alien Conquest, but it might be against competing licensed sci-fi or whatever. Once again, that's strictly conjecture and not official word.

That said, I've been trying to formulate a kid-friendly sci-fi theme. Even before CUUSOO went international I had the idea for something like CITY but a couple thousand years in the future - basically, the civilians that the Space Police from SP3 were protecting. Jetson style houses, flying cars, jetpacks, robots, humans and aliens living in peace together, that kind of thing. I just don't have the time or resources to build it all in real bricks, but could give it a go in LDD when the inspiration really strikes.

Also, all good points ahcow!

[legitimatealex]

Can't say I'm surprised it got rejected. To those saying that the rating on the movie (PG-13) is no different from quite a few of the other licensed themes that they have produced, just remember that the show has 1. Multiple sex scenes that I'm quite surprised that could be shown on American TV 2. Horribly mutilated raping cannibalistic monsters 3. A large amount of sexual innuendo/nudity. It is in no way appropriate for children, ever.

That said I know they have to stick with their core concept/audience but I do miss Firefly very much. I want you back Captain!

[LegoFanTexas]

I'd say that the target Firefly audience was high school and adult. One of the main characters is a prostitute, and the rest are mostly thieves and smugglers. The characters have redeeming qualities, but they're not clearly good people.

IJ, HP, Batman, LotR are aimed at 10 years old and up, so pushing the upper end of the Lego demographic, but they're relatively safe for kids. The rest are designed from the start to appeal to kids. The good guys and bad guys are clearly defined.

You are correct about Firefly, they are not "good vs. evil" people, but then that is life and the real world, that is what made Firefly special, it wasn't so "light side vs. dark side".

I'm going to have to call you on Batman and LotR being aimed at 10 year olds. There is nothing whatsoever about those three movies that would cause me to allow my 10 year old to EVER watch them, I wouldn't let my 13 year old watch them, and they are PG-13. They are VIOLENT, in a way that even I find shocking.

LotR is FAR more inappropriate for kids than Firefly is...

[vynsane]

For the most part, I'd say the entire core of the protagonists in Firefly are comprised of "good people doing bad things because of bad situations". Mal is an honorable man of good intention, but he's making a living doing dishonorable things because that's the situation he's found himself in. It's also a classic archetype, and I think Mal and Han would become fast (if not completely trusting) friends, given the chance to make each-others acquaintance.

1. Multiple sex scenes that I'm quite surprised that could be shown on American TV

There was never anything graphic, and anything that happened was only strongly implied, though one of the crew members was a high-class 'companion', after all... It being aired on FOX, there was a lot more implied than on other networks, sure, but it's not like it was skinemax levels.

2. Horribly mutilated raping cannibalistic monsters

Who are only ever talked about and never actually seen in the series - they only appear onscreen in the movie. But, do they EVER in the movie...

3. A large amount of sexual innuendo/nudity. It is in no way appropriate for children, ever.

This is kind of a repeat of point 1, really. There was never any actual nudity, in either the series or the movie - once again, it was only implied. You saw Mal's butt once, which, in yet another twist of convention, was more than you ever saw of Inara.

But I disagree with the contention that sexual innuendo and/or nudity is always inappropriate for children. Not that I allow my daughter to watch shows/movies that are above her maturity level, but I'd much rather my daughter land upon a steamy love scene while flipping through the channels than a gory decapitation. A lot of people (not assuming you are one of them, mind you) would somehow rather the opposite (I guess because sex is the devil's work while decapitations ain't nothin' but a thang). Call me crazy, if that's sane (but, then again, I call myself vynsane, so what do I know).

That said, in terms of things that are appropriate for my daughter to watch, I'd lean more towards a non-violent movie that might have some sexual content in it over a violent movie. I'm not saying she's going to watch 'Superbad' any time soon, but she's watched the entire series of 'Gilmore Girls' with my wife many times over, which includes some intimate moments.

Also, some of the implied nudity in Firefly was completely non-sexual and, in fact, completely comical in nature (thinking the episode 'Trash', wherein we see the aforementioned butt of Mal) - which is something you'd be hard-pressed to find anywhere else. Most screen nudity is purely sexualized, even when used for comic effect.

In all honesty, the amount of sexuality in Firelfy is a pittance in comparison to the violence.

That said I know they have to stick with their core concept/audience but I do miss Firefly very much. I want you back Captain!

They've been publishing Firefly comics for a while now - have you checked them out? I heard the Free Comic Book Day issue this year was phenomenal. The person I know to be a Firefly fanatic who told me this said he could hear the voices of the characters in his head while reading, the writing was that spot-on.

[LegoFanTexas]

But I disagree with the contention that sexual innuendo and/or nudity is always inappropriate for children. Not that I allow my daughter to watch shows/movies that are above her maturity level, but I'd much rather my daughter land upon a steamy love scene while flipping through the channels than a gory decapitation. A lot of people (not assuming you are one of them, mind you) would somehow rather the opposite (I guess because sex is the devil's work while decapitations ain't nothin' but a thang). Call me crazy, if that's sane (but, then again, I call myself vynsane, so what do I know).

^ This, right here...

A naked woman is not the devil, it will not scar children for life, having kids watch sex does not destroy them.

Having them exposed 24/7 to killing, violence, etc. will.

Thank you... *gets off soapbox*

[Buttmunch]

These two rejections by LEGO (Winchester and now this) have really left a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm an AFOL. How many other fans of the Firefly who might have become fans of LEGO are now bitter over this decision and won't give LEGO a second chance? Probably a few. Each of these rejections is hurting LEGO and Cuusoo.

I also don't understand their logic. This is bad (based off of a TV show and a PG-13 movie), but Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, The Avengers, Batman, Pirates of the Caribbean, Prince of Persia, and Lord of the Rings are all suitable for six year olds? Really? Because those properties have all gotten PG-13 ratings too and I won't let my 6 year old watch them.

I think that's what bothers me the most... the hypocrisy of the whole process. If the license is a huge hit, no problem tarnishing their image to secure it. But when fans try to get them to think outside the box, they go all "think of the children" on us.

If that's the stance they want to take, then I wish they'd work with Hollywood to make sure that properties with toy lines aimed at kids should have no worse than a PG rating. I hate having to be the bad guy telling my kid that he can't go see the latest PG-13 movie, when most of his friends' parents let their kids go, and toy lines like LEGO and Hasbro make toys for these movies.

Well said. I think the 'not appropriate' line they've been using lately is just a cop out. I get the Shaun of the Dead one. It was an R rated movie afterall. But Firefly wasn't any more 'innapropriate' than the other PG-13 films you've listed. I mean was it really all that different than Star Wars?

[dho7622u]

I just want someone to come up with an original idea to hit 10k, not a licensed.

I agree whole heartedly. Though I understand a certain fan base, if TLG wanted to market more licensed sets, I think they would probably be aware of the products.

The need for original ideas is the key.

[legitimatealex]

I've never actually gotten into comics too well, and for a series that was so action packed and done primarily through TV and movies, I don't think I could adjust very well to the medium change.

As for what's inappropriate or not, I'm going to have to really give this one to LEGO still, despite the arguments given. Firefly is most definitely not aimed towards kids in any way shape or form. It's a Joss Whedon original series. They're never aimed at years 6-11 like LEGO is. Young adults or teens may enjoy the shows he puts out (as I know many of my friends did when Buffy was in its prime, probably target audience of 13, 14+) but I don't think its what 'the kids' as LEGO is aiming for want.

I know that nakedness wont end a child's life (did you know that we're all naked underneath these clothes? Crazy) but it seems like no one here can empathize with LEGO's position in the market or their company philosophy. They're one of the top 5 most recognized brand names, they're the ultimate 'child friendly' toy, and they avoid controversy to do so, something that I can't fault them for. Every product they go through is rigorously examined to make sure that it is not over the top or offensive in anyway. AFOLs are also only 5-10% of the LEGO buyers.

The counterexamples to this seem to be point back to other licensed themes with violence in it, like Batman and LOTR, but stop a moment to think about it and ask if they really compare. Most of the Batman sets that are out are not meant to be a tie in to the Christopher Nolan Batman or any of the more ultra violent ones; they are pretty much strictly Adam West Batman kind of violence (Look at the comics that come with the sets; 'Bam' and 'Pow' all over them.)

LOTR seems to get a pass because it is strictly fantasy violence and it is a clear 'good vs evil' set up: the orcs and goblins are the bad guys, there are some bad corrupted humans with them and they're versus the good guys who are are all beautiful and pretty. It's obvious from here that most of you don't think this is an adequate reason to accept LOTR over Firefly, but LOTR still differs a lot from Firefly (lack of nudity/sexuality. Heck, for all I know Hobbits are like cabbage patch kids and Ents...hmm they might be related to the cabbage patch kids.)

I suppose what we can draw from this is that any sort of sexuality automatically disqualifies a CUSOO build from being chosen, even if that nudity is not representative in the model. Sucks, but once again, LEGO sells primarily for very young ages.

I'd debate some of your point's Vynsane over Firefly some more but there's no point nit picking. Discussing Firefly some more would only serve to distract from what LEGO should consider appropriate.

At the same time though, I wish LEGO could market towards older mature builders. It wont happen though until we're a bigger part of the LEGO market share.

[vynsane]

To be honest, I wasn't addressing counter-points in an attempt to argue against TLG's decision - I agree with their decision. I was mainly countering the idea that it was overt sexual tones in the show as opposed to the comparatively much greater level of violence that informed their decision.

That said, I think their decision was ultimately swayed by dollar signs: Those that wouldn't be flowing in to match the cost of producing a set that would only sell to a fraction of a fraction of a rabid fanbase (Adult Fans of LEGO Who Also Happen to Be Adult Fans of Firefly or what I've coined as AFoLWAHtBAFoFfs).

[SpaceNinjaDino]

Are they saying that kids 6-11 like the Architecture, Technic, Mindstorms series? Those sets are only sold to adults. This excuse is a sham!

Maybe the format should be in more of a Kickstarter format where people have to put up the money to vote for something. If 10,000 had $50 each promised towards the set, would LEGO simply say $500,000 is not enough money to bother?

[Relhak]

I'm going to have to call you on Batman and LotR being aimed at 10 year olds. There is nothing whatsoever about those three movies that would cause me to allow my 10 year old to EVER watch them, I wouldn't let my 13 year old watch them, and they are PG-13. They are VIOLENT, in a way that even I find shocking.

LotR is FAR more inappropriate for kids than Firefly is...

Batman encompasses a wide variety of source material. Yes, there are the dark, more adult oriented films, but there are also the comic books and cartoons, and the old school live action tv series. Haven't you ever seen a kindergartener dressed up as batman for Halloween?

I think the LotR movies are by themselves just barely over the line as Lego source material. But The Hobbit is coming out, and that is considered by many to be appropriate for kids down to about 10 years old. And since Lego has already had the Castle theme with good guys (including dwarves) vs. orcs, it's hardly anything new. And realistically speaking, Tolkien really took over and expanded the whole high fantasy genre. It's so hard to do high fantasy without being derivative that you might as well just go to the source.

But if violence is your primary measuring stick, then Star Wars would never make the cut. Light saber battles that end in amputation/decapitation. Massive armies mowing each other down in battle. Blowing up ships containing thousands of people. Blowing up entire planets full of people.

[vynsane]

Are they saying that kids 6-11 like the Architecture, Technic, Mindstorms series? Those sets are only sold to adults. This excuse is a sham!

It's not a sham, they've already addressed the fact that they make sets that cater to adults, but they are still kid-friendly - they don't dilute the brand with inappropriate themes.

[NIGELTTF]

Are they saying that kids 6-11 like the Architecture, Technic, Mindstorms series? Those sets are only sold to adults. This excuse is a sham!

It's not a sham, they've already addressed the fact that they make sets that cater to adults, but they are still kid-friendly - they don't dilute the brand with inappropriate themes.

and by kid friendly, we really mean "won't get adults pissed off enough to raise a stink or boycott our product" I am glad that it has shifted to that meaning, after all I like that the Architecture, Technic, Mindstorms series are available, even if the new meaning is less than honest.

[vynsane]

"won't get adults pissed off enough to raise a stink or boycott our product"

Unless they're rabid AFoAs (Adult Fans of Architecture) and boycott models based on their favorite architect's nemesis...

[NIGELTTF]

"won't get adults pissed off enough to raise a stink or boycott our product"

Unless they're rabid AFoAs (Adult Fans of Architecture) and boycott models based on their favorite architect's nemesis...

On that note, I'd like to see something by Wayne McCallister. One of those Circular Drive ins perhaps, or the Bob's Big Boy.